帮自由党说几句话

youngguncn · 发表于 2015-10-16 18:42

惩罚这两个字阁下有那个不理解吗？

peterpan · 发表于 2015-10-16 19:07

youngguncn 发表于 2015-10-16 19:420 i1 I Y S* U! C d' a0 u) v
惩罚这两个字阁下有那个不理解吗？

首先你要搞清楚惩罚的合理性和法理依据
我虽然也是支持保守党，但我不会逢自由党政策必反，大麻和烟草的对比很多人都提过了，如果不清楚可以看看桃花茶的贴子
在我看来，同性婚姻，安乐死，大麻合法化这一类的议题，无论是否其实都无关法律对错，更多的是人的认识程度及主观道德规范

youngguncn · 发表于 2015-10-16 20:14

peterpan 发表于 2015-10-16 20:076 R6 I s9 b' f1 w5 k4 r+ c
首先你要搞清楚惩罚的合理性和法理依据
0 K1 e: _: Q+ t: F我虽然也是支持保守党，但我不会逢自由党政策必反，大麻和烟草的 ...

你告诉我超速罚款你扯了这么多蛋跟你支持哪个党有什么关系。
然后你再告诉我超速罚款的不合理性和不合法性。

我们来定个约，如果你能把这俩事说明白了，你想扯什么同性婚姻，安乐死，咱都陪着你。
你有这本事吗？

永安里 · 发表于 2015-10-16 20:18

peterpan 发表于 2015-10-16 20:07) G* t* }' L: y% F5 E9 @
首先你要搞清楚惩罚的合理性和法理依据
6 v H- Q4 {8 [. _5 B9 `我虽然也是支持保守党，但我不会逢自由党政策必反，大麻和烟草的 ...

桃花茶对大麻和烟草的比较完全是断章取义。烟草 is bad physically, 大麻 is way worse mentally. 你觉得健康的身体比较重要还是健康的精神比较重要？ equally important. 烟草给人癌症，大麻更容易诱发人发疯。你是家长，你选哪个？烟草已经合法了，因为这个就要也把更容易 fry young adult's nerve 的大麻合法化？现在我们面对的不是二选一。而是已经有了一个 bad,还要另外增加一bad 的问题。

另外，我发现中国人特别喜欢听信一些似是而非的医疗洗脑。我们临床中面对国人，会问你一千一万个问题，你给他解释后，他听了，但是根本没有听进去，两分钟后依然问你同样的问题，而且会拿 Dr.Google 来反驳你。弄得我们好无奈，真的很想说 “请你回家自己治疗好了”

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 20:22

美国至少有两个州大麻合法化了。不知道有没有分析这合法化的后果是什么？

好，坏，不好不坏，好大一点点，坏多一点，对青少年的影响等等

永安里 · 发表于 2015-10-16 20:28

FrankSoccer 发表于 2015-10-16 21:22
& J) W9 [$ Y4 T. |6 P3 c美国至少有两个州大麻合法化了。不知道有没有分析这合法化的后果是什么？
; V1 r4 e: e6 q5 Y/ V' l4 V) k5 |$ j, t# |
好，坏，不好不坏，好大一点点 ...

美国不清楚。加拿大是20%人有精神疾病。也就是五个里面有一个。这是 Canadian mental health Association 的数据。个人的工作让我接触大量病人并且获取详细病史。个人感觉，中国人精神疾病的比例远远小于本地人去。这其中有没有中国人少接触毒品的关系？我的个人猜测。

永安里 · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:01

FrankSoccer 发表于 2015-10-16 21:22
( V6 K' e: T( C! h美国至少有两个州大麻合法化了。不知道有没有分析这合法化的后果是什么？. b! D+ S) V* e3 {
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好，坏，不好不坏，好大一点点 ...

另外， “ it is estimated that 13 –20 percent of children living in the United States (up to 1 out of 5 children) experience a mental disorder in a given year ” 这是美国 CDC 的数据。五分之一，这是多么可怕的数字。这中间，多少是遗传因素，又有多少，是因为父母，特别是母亲在怀孕过程中使用 recreational drugs (其中包括大麻) 而造成的呢？
中国有这么高的儿童精神疾病发病率吗？中国医疗保健总的来说比美国差得多了。

猴子 · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:10

顺便说一下，省NDP要把AISH增加到每人每月2000，这些钱大部分会被用来买毒品，所以很大程度上相当于给drug dealers和有组织的犯罪集团涨工资。

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:13

永安里发表于 2015-10-16 21:28
/ O3 D7 o3 ]% p2 L美国不清楚。加拿大是20%人有精神疾病。也就是五个里面有一个。这是 Canadian mental health Associat ...

这和大麻有关系？

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:14

永安里发表于 2015-10-16 22:015 S" h& c# T& X! r; G% N6 n0 N
另外， “ it is estimated that 13 –20 percent of children living in the United States (up to 1 ou ...

这也和大麻有关系？

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:21

永安里发表于 2015-10-16 21:28" m2 C* U9 N& ~6 c# E: {
美国不清楚。加拿大是20%人有精神疾病。也就是五个里面有一个。这是 Canadian mental health Associat ...

有些怀疑这数据：在街上数四个人头，下一个就可能是有精神疾病。这还了得！

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:22

还是来点实在的：如果你是个家长或者监护人，这里的七条可以帮助你减少孩子接触毒品和酒精

If you are a parent or guardian, you’ve probably done your share of worrying about your child drinking alcohol and/or using drugs.

You can do your best to limit a child’s exposure to substances, but  you can’t guarantee that your child will never have the opportunity to use drugs and alcohol. That’s why it’s so important to take the necessary steps to keep kids drug and alcohol free. Studies show that parental disapproval is the number one reason children choose not to drink alcohol. Empowered parents can trump peer pressure.

Here are 7 tips to keep kids drug & alcohol free:

1. Explain the risks

Most teens don’t understand the damage they could do to their brains and future by drinking alcohol and doing drugs. Learn the risks and explain them to your children. Check out this post about how drugs and alcohol affect the growing teenage brain.

2. Talk early and often

Don’t put off the conversation because you think your child isn’t ready. Eight  isn’t too early to start an age appropriate conversation.

The average age of first use of alcohol is 13.5 in Texas.
Half of all lifetime cases of mental and substance use disorders begin by age 14.
The average age of first marijuana use is 13.7 years old in Texas.
Children who begin drinking at age 13 have a 45% chance of becoming alcohol dependent.

3. Set clear rules and be a good role model

Set clear rules about alcohol and drug use and be a good role model. That doesn’t mean that adults can’t drink—however, if adults in the household drink, explain that adults over the age of 21 are allowed to drink and should do so in moderation.

4. Know your children’s friends and their parents

Know who your child spends time with and know their family. Help your children choose friends who support their personal values and have conversations with their friend’s family about the risks of underage drinking and drug use.

5. Make alcohol and drugs unavailable

Ensure that alcohol and drugs are not available to your child when they are at home or away. Keep alcohol and any prescription pills locked up in your home.

6. Encourage conversations about concerns and questions

Make sure your children know that they can feel comfortable in talking to you about any questions or concerns they have about drugs and alcohol.

7. Give your children the tools and self-confidence to say no

Children with high refusal skills are less likely to drink underage and do drugs. Decide on good ways to say “no” and practice them often in role-play situations.

Do you have any tips for keeping teens drug and alcohol free? Let us know in the comments!

永安里 · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:28

FrankSoccer 发表于 2015-10-16 22:214 G% `1 A5 p, j. {+ ]
有些怀疑这数据：在街上数四个人头，下一个就可能是有精神疾病。这还了得！

http://www.camh.ca/en/hospital/about_camh/newsroom/for_reporters/Pages/addictionmentalhealthstatistics.aspx

自己看数据。美国加拿大都差不多，你街上看到的人，有多少每天需要吃药控制精神疾病，这些你是看不到的。
隔行如隔山。

永安里 · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:35

FrankSoccer 发表于 2015-10-16 22:13
$ d% b$ O; H: J8 W& `% Q5 l! u这和大麻有关系？

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/marijuana

自己看吧。

大麻会伤害年轻人正在发育的神经。
Also create Problems with child development during and after pregnancy.

醉酒当歌 · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:42

楼主话没有任何逻辑，小黄逻辑很强，把楼主反驳得完全无法回答。

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:47

The phrase ‘mental health problems and illnesses’ represents the range of behaviours, thoughts and
emotions that can result in some level of distress or impairment in areas such as school, work, social
and family interactions and the ability to live independently. There are many different kinds of mental
health problems and illnesses. They range from anxiety and depressive disorders through to schizophrenia and bipolar disorder, and are often associated with a formal medical diagnosis. The type, intensity, recurrence, and duration of symptoms of mental health problems and illnesses can vary widely from person to person, as well as by type of problem or illness.

There is no single known cause for most mental health problems and illnesses. They are thought to
be the result of a complex interaction among social, economic, psychological, biological and genetic
factors. The factors that play a role in the development of mental health problems and illnesses are
very similar to those that influence our overall health and well-being. The relative roles of the factors
will vary amongst individuals and across the stages of life. For some people, for example, depression is mostly the result of exposure to stressful life events, whereas for others genetic predisposition
plays a stronger role. Mental health problems co-existing with certain physical illnesses can contribute to poorer overall health outcomes.4

peterpan · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:50

youngguncn 发表于 2015-10-16 21:14
7 p3 U/ q& c6 Y$ Q9 J4 t你告诉我超速罚款你扯了这么多蛋跟你支持哪个党有什么关系。 H# J: r. F+ I# T. ?: j
然后你再告诉我超速罚款的不合理性和不合法 ...

你太激动了，以至于影响了你的阅读理解能力，我说的是大麻非法还是合法并没有一个清晰的法理基础，所以在世界上有的地方合法有的地方非法，这点和同性婚姻及安乐死有类似的地方
辨论也不是看谁声大看谁说话冲，要细说不是有没有胆量或本事，而是有没有必要，呵呵

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 21:58

永安里发表于 2015-10-16 22:35
: l4 S3 s+ r2 R3 Uhttps://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/marijuana
; T6 M6 A+ c) `1 X
& w0 V3 u9 N0 X' B自己看吧。

这几项都是mental health的。吸烟也造成危害嘛，尼古丁非法化嘛。

Smoking and stress

The idea that people smoke cigarettes to help ease the signs and symptoms of stress is known as ‘self-medication’. Stress is very common, affecting us when we feel unable to cope with unwelcome pressure. It can cause physical symptoms like headaches or breathlessness as well as making people feel irritable, anxious or low. These feelings can alter our behaviour and feeling stressed often makes people drink alcohol or smoke more than usual. Long term stress is also related to anxiety and depression.
Smoking and anxiety

Research into smoking and stress has shown that instead of helping people to relax, smoking actually increases anxiety and tension. Nicotine creates an immediate sense of relaxation so people smoke in the belief that it reduces stress and anxiety. This feeling of relaxation is temporary and soon gives way to withdrawal symptoms and increased cravings. Smoking reduces nicotine withdrawal symptoms, which are similar to the symptoms of anxiety, but it does not reduce anxiety or deal with the underlying causes.
Smoking and depression

In the UK, smoking rates among adults with depression are about twice as high as among adults without depression. People with depression have particular difficulty when they try to stop smoking and have more severe withdrawal symptoms during attempts to give up. Nicotine stimulates the release of the chemical dopamine in the brain. Dopamine is involved in triggering positive feelings. It is often found to be low in people with depression, who may then use cigarettes as a way of temporarily increasing their dopamine supply. However, smoking encourages the brain to switch off its own mechanism for making dopamine so in the long term the supply decreases, which in turn prompts people to smoke more.

Most people start to smoke before they show signs of depression so it is unclear whether smoking leads to depression or depression encourages people to start smoking. The most likely explanation is that there is a complex relationship between the two.
Smoking and schizophrenia

People with schizophrenia are three times more likely to smoke than other people and they tend to smoke more heavily. One of the most common explanations of this is that people with schizophrenia use smoking to control or manage some of the symptoms associated with their illness and to reduce some of the side effects of their medication. A recent study has shown that there could be a causal link between smoking and schizophrenia. However, there are various factors which may increase the risk for developing schizophrenia and further research is needed to fully understand the link and causal pathway.
Does smoking improve mental health?

Although many people with mental health problems say that they smoke to reduce their symptoms, they usually start smoking before their problems begin. Heavy smoking does not necessarily lead to fewer symptoms of mental health problems in the long term. Any short term benefits that smoking seems to have are outweighed by the higher rates of smoking-related physical health problems, such as lung cancer, that are common in people with mental health problems.

小问题，假如下周自由党被选上了，你怎么办？对我来说，谁都差不多一样烂。

peterpan · 发表于 2015-10-16 22:00

永安里发表于 2015-10-16 21:18& v6 T7 C" Z( ~# T
桃花茶对大麻和烟草的比较完全是断章取义。烟草 is bad physically, 大麻 is way worse mentally. 你觉 ...

你是做医务的?请问"大麻容易导致精神疾病"以及"美加百分之多少的人有精神疾病"和吸食大麻有什么直接的证据?不要拿Dr.Google的答案，用你的第一手资料
如果拿中美的数据作比较那真实性就又值得怀疑了，中美本身的标准就不一样，北京的空气质量还经常优于洛杉矶呢

永安里 · 发表于 2015-10-16 22:19

peterpan 发表于 2015-10-16 23:005 G `* @/ f2 l
你是做医务的?请问"大麻容易导致精神疾病"以及"美加百分之多少的人有精神疾病"和吸食大麻有什么直接的证 ...

美国的数据来自于 CDC
加拿大的数据来自于 Canadian mental health Association
我列举的网站是 government website, 不是某个人自己的微信或者个人 blog, 那是我所说的 Dr. Google.
"I see more and more cases of substance-induced psychosis," said Dr. Sinthu Suntharalingam, a child and adolescent psychiatrist. "The most common substance that's abused is cannabis."http://www.ctvnews.ca/health/pot-can-pose-psychosis-risk-for-teens-with-developing-brains-researchers-1.2409607

Enough is enough. I tell you what I see from my past clinical experience, you ask for evidence, I gave you evidence , then you dont trust the source. I have worked on mental health ward, looked after drug addiction adolescents, worked with a lot of pediatric psychiatrist. I personally think they know more about the risk factors of marijuana and drug induced mental illness. You can totally ignore me and hold on to your belief.

peterpan · 发表于 2015-10-16 22:22

劝一句真的没必要这么激动，其实这次大选的决定因素在安魁两省，在这里吵得不可开交，没有太大的意义
c24和大麻合法化都是有争议的政策，必然有一半人支持一半人反对，表达观点可以，但死心塌地支持一个声嘶力歇反对另一个就有点偏激了

peterpan · 发表于 2015-10-16 22:26

本帖最后由 peterpan 于 2015-10-16 23:32 编辑

永安里发表于 2015-10-16 23:198 X s, J$ j/ [2 Y" @% m/ J' r) m1 ~0 D
美国的数据来自于 CDC
! b' X/ n9 D( L8 X, t加拿大的数据来自于 Canadian mental health Association
+ A! S# R: E) I% ]! t. S我列举的网站是 gover ...

我问的不是百分比，而是你说的大麻导致精神疾病的证据，某一两个人的推测不能算数，因为google很容易找出相反的推断。我也不是在challenge你，而是想了解这个是否真的有关，毕竟我也有小孩

永安里 · 发表于 2015-10-16 22:32

FrankSoccer 发表于 2015-10-16 22:58& O, m+ w* h- B1 R2 t5 y
这几项都是mental health的。吸烟也造成危害嘛，尼古丁非法化嘛。; h5 e' ]5 }) L; x/ V- M9 O
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这不是一个二选一，要香烟或者大麻的问题。而是已经有了糟糕的香烟，还要再加上一个糟糕的大麻的问题。香烟已经无法改变，大麻努力一下还有希望。。。。。我不明白为什么要去比较 which is worse, 两个都很糟糕。

谁当选日子都一样过。大麻是否合法都要严防死守自己的小孩，心里觉得自己深深感觉是女人的男人可以进入女更衣室的话，就带孩子用 family change room. 还好这边的卫生间都是 individual 的，撑死了共用洗手池。

peterpan · 发表于 2015-10-16 22:44

无论大麻合不合法，它都在被广泛吸食，即便你能在这里压倒对方，你还能一天二十四小时跟着你小孩?合法化又不是鼓励孩子吸食，不会比烟酒的限制松的

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 22:44

永安里发表于 2015-10-16 23:32
' \3 R0 E$ a7 H4 j3 N f这不是一个二选一，要香烟或者大麻的问题。而是已经有了糟糕的香烟，还要再加上一个糟糕的大麻的问题 ...

所以嘛，这烂选举吵得翻了天，下周不还得照样过日子？

特别是那种族歧视的大行其道，真给华人丢脸

永安里 · 发表于 2015-10-16 23:03

本帖最后由永安里于 2015-10-17 00:10 编辑

peterpan 发表于 2015-10-16 23:26
' G$ A5 o; v. r我问的不是百分比，而是你说的大麻导致精神疾病的证据，某一两个人的推测不能算数，因为google很容易找 ...

最后一次回答你。 when a doctor speaks to public in an interview,, she has to support her speach with her clinical or research evidence. They get peer critics. 然后你说一两个人的推测不算数。  I told you my opinion came from my work experience and the experts that I worked with. 你还可以说一两个人的推测不算数。 use your common sense. Why people love cannabis so much they develop addiction? It makes people feel high,or extremely relaxed, or whatever. Why? 大脑的功能依赖于一种很复杂的化学因素叫 neurotransmitters that act as carriers of information between cells called neurons. Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), 也就是大麻的主要成分会影响这个信号的传输功能。

THC specifically interacts with brain proteins named cannabinoid receptors that are highly expressed in the brain. A higher density of these proteins exists in brain areas that are critical for learning, memory, pain perception, and reward processing. In fact, scientists think the activation of cannabinoid receptors in the brain’s reward pathways may underlie marijuana’s likelihood for abuse。大麻这种物质会影响大脑中主管学习，记忆，疼痛的区域，你觉得对青少年来说，是好事？大麻会造成 short term and long term memory 的损害，记忆力对学习的重要性不需要重复。
Despite the promise of medicinal cannabinoid drugs, concerns remain regarding the effects of marijuana on the developing brain. Marijuana abuse during adolescence may produce enduring changes in brain function, particularly in individuals at a greater risk for developing psychiatric disorders. Scientific research suggests that repeated marijuana use during adolescence (at least four joints per week) can increase the risk for psychosis, decrease adulthood IQ, and lead to changes in the brain that increase vulnerability to more dangerous illicit drugs. 以上信息来自http://www.brainfacts.org/about-neuroscience/ask-an-expert/articles/2013/how-does-marijuana-affect-brain-function/
Society for neuroscience 的出版网站。
最后重复一次，大麻造成的后果是  induce, trigger, 没有任何文章目前说大麻是  direct cause, medical ethics 的监测下，也不可能做出这样的实验来。但是作为家长， trigger 或者 induce 就足以提高警戒线。

“  无论大麻合不合法，它都在被广泛吸食，即便你能在这里压倒对方，你还能一天二十四小时跟着你小孩?合法化又不是鼓励孩子吸食，不会比烟酒的限制松的”
再说一次，这不是一个单选题，这是一个已经有了糟糕的，还要来个糟糕的问题。烟酒已经合法化无能为力。大麻还可以至少努力一下。
合法化的确不是鼓励吸食，但是它传递了一个信息，那就是很多人会认为它是无害的，或者轻微的有害。比如你自己。你之前了解大麻对神经系统的作用吗。

FrankSoccer · 发表于 2015-10-16 23:11

永安里发表于 2015-10-17 00:03
( a+ J2 h3 Y4 _! A) f最后一次回答你。 when a doctor speaks to public in an interview,, she has to support her speac ...

1 从这些数字看，世界平均数很不低
2 中国的成年人，特别是学生里，发病率很高
所以说，大麻肯定有坏影响，但并不是最主要的因素

1996年世界卫生组织总干事中岛宏在第10届世界精神病学大会开幕式上说：全世界共有15亿人患有某种程度的精神紊乱和行为紊乱病症，但其中仅有50%的人承认自己患有这种疾病，而且只有1%的人接受了精神病治疗。以世界总人口68亿计，全球精神病患者平均约占22%，比中国1亿患者的比例8%高得多。世界卫生组织专家还断言，从现在到21世纪中叶，没有任何一种灾难能像心理危机那样给人们带来持续而深刻的痛苦。

　　中国疾病预防控制中心精神卫生中心2009年初公布的数据显示，我国各类精神疾病患者人数在1亿人以上，然而公众对精神疾病的知晓率尚不足5成，就诊率则更低。按照国际上衡量健康状况的伤残调整生命指标评价各类疾病的总负担，精神疾患在我国疾病总负担的排名中居首位，已超过了心脑血管、呼吸系统及恶性肿瘤等疾患。各类精神问题约占疾病总负担的1/5，即占全部疾病和外伤所致残疾及劳动力丧失的1/5，预计到2020年，这一比率将升至1/4。

　　“我国精神障碍人群庞大，已经接近乙肝患者数字，它给患者本人、家庭和社会都带来危害。”山西省卫生厅疾病预防控制处处长李贵在接受半月谈记者采访时说。

　　一项涵盖中国12%成年人的大型调查显示，成年人群精神障碍总现患率为17.5%。其中心境障碍为6.1%，焦虑障碍5.6%，物质滥用障碍5.9%。对于心境障碍和焦虑障碍，女性患病率高于男性；40岁及以上人群现患率高于40岁以下人群。男性患酒精使用障碍的风险是女性的38倍。农村居民重性抑郁障碍、心境恶劣障碍和酒依赖的患病率高于城市居民。

　　不仅成人群体，儿童一样面对严峻的形势。中国科学院心理研究所对北京一千八百多名家长近三年的跟踪调查得出的结论是：三分之二的家庭教育不当，造成孩子存在各种心理问题。

　　我国高校学生的心理障碍发生率已由1989年的占总生病率的20.23%上升为1998年的27.03%；天津市对5万名大学生所作的调查中，有心理障碍的占16%以上。北京大学近十年来因心理疾病休、退学人数占总休学、退学人数的1/3左右。杭州市科委从7所不同类型的学校抽取2961名大学生进行为期3年的跟踪研究，发现有心理障碍的占25.39%。

peterpan · 发表于 2015-10-16 23:13

本帖最后由 peterpan 于 2015-10-17 00:15 编辑

永安里发表于 2015-10-17 00:03
3 Z$ r h5 G; }9 y) H最后一次回答你。 when a doctor speaks to public in an interview,, she has to support her speac ...

那我也最后评论一次，你这么长的一篇，就是"最后重复一次"这一段最有价值:没有证据证明，那么就不要用这个理由来反对

tonytonytony · 发表于 2015-10-17 04:16

荷兰吸麻妓女合法世界上最安全的地方之一

peterpan · 发表于 2015-10-17 07:00

tonytonytony 发表于 2015-10-17 05:16' w# g1 R* u7 T/ S
荷兰吸麻妓女合法世界上最安全的地方之一

就是嘛，无论欧洲还是美国，都早有了大麻合法化的地方，他们的毒品横行了吗?青少年普遍吸毒和有精神病了吗?有时候很怕那些看似高瞻远瞩其实危言耸听的人。人类社会在进步，有些东西永远不变，比如故意杀人是犯罪，有些东西是在随着社会的发展人们的认识水平而变化，比如男女同校，黑白平等，同性婚姻等，包括大麻合法化

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