雪天开车想到的

kingsnake · 发表于 2006-11-2 10:33

哈哈。你們討論得興高彩烈的。
好。在冬天的環境，讓我給你們一個比喻吧。

把一個小嬰孩放在雪橇裏，往前一推。
再把大肥佬，放在雪橇裏，底下放兩枝小長鉄，往前又是一推，看看誰最遠。
重量與面積，在冰地上有不同的物理反應。

hakunamatata · 发表于 2006-11-2 11:30

原帖由 kingsnake 于 2006-11-2 09:33 发表1 Y1 d/ k, u+ I( |4 P
哈哈。你們討論得興高彩烈的。6 M+ v6 Z! a: l: H. x# {
好。在冬天的環境，讓我給你們一個比喻吧。1 V0 f' c, k: o" b

. ]8 ?6 A( L7 ^" Z/ ?把一個小嬰孩放在雪橇裏，往前一推。
5 `. [% g7 ]! @9 g9 s再把大肥佬，放在雪橇裏，底下放兩枝小長鉄，往前又是一推，看看誰最遠。
" F" I1 @: Q8 Z) Y; Q( O9 X' Q7 q重量與面積，在 ...

知道你是个懂车的
多写点,说说看法

MingJ · 发表于 2006-11-4 19:47

原帖由 hakunamatata 于 2006-10-30 15:20 发表, t% Z9 \( X& K: m9 s
个人感觉,车小车轻对雪天开车有好处.
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7 [7 A- q& Z- g3 Q8 M7 Q1 e很多人都说美国车重好,大好,我不这么想# T. }# m4 L% w- b

8 X$ e1 }1 ?/ X% Y6 l; c一, 从物理上讲,应该是摩擦力和正压力成正比,也就是车越重,行使和刹车的摩擦力越大,在通常意义来讲是这样,但是,那是物理,现 ...

Theory won't help, pratice , more practice, testdriving different type of vehicles at different road condition would give you more sense.

挨着门洞 · 发表于 2006-11-4 20:31

最近看到一辆撞了的bmw 3 ,06的新车，外观看撞的不轻,很诧异,毕竟过去认为德国车尤其是宝马很结实,于是问了一位有几十年body经验的师傅,得到答复，德国车注重车内安全，发生事故，外面看来很严重，但是车内一点问题也没有，他设计的原则是人身安全,那我问，什么车安全?实用?他说,综合看来,日本车不错,但指的是大型车，也就是camry或者雅阁以上的的大型车，这些车很结实，同品牌不同型号的车底盘构造是不同的，佳美的底盘有一个很结实的圈梁,这个在小型车是没有的，美国车相对结实，但是小毛病非常多，2年的新车经常整天去修,欧洲车很好,问题是配件修理非常贵,简直的天价,举个例子,他说一个前灯新的价格在1200左右,别的就别说了,不是夸奖日本车，只是这些是那位师傅的原话.

hakunamatata · 发表于 2006-11-4 22:50

原帖由 MingJ 于 2006-11-4 18:47 发表
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Theory won't help, pratice , more practice, testdriving different type of vehicles at different road condition would give you more sense.

不明白你的意思
是我前面说的不对，还是你觉得我见识太少，没开过什么different type of vehicles at different road condition不该在这说什么
还是支持我的观点

ligeree · 发表于 2006-11-6 17:06

not all jap cars are reliable, Honda and Toyota are very reliable, but others are just ok or not quite good. Japanese car are definately not among the safest, Honda/Toyata are just average or even below average, while nissan, suzuki, mitubushi are among the worst in regard to safty.
The safest car are europian cars, like vw, volvo, MB, bmw, audi, their injury rate can be 1/2 or 1/3 of those less safe ones.
american cars in general have average safty rating, and have a reliablity rating quite similar to europian cars(less reliable than Honda/Toyota), but they can be fixed cheaper than jap cars, and much cheaper than europian cars.

Cars will have more and more problems when it's getting older. In general a certain year's american/europian car's reliablility is quite similar to a 3 or 4 more years older Honda/Toyota.

but all these are statistical numbers. Each model each year each car is so different, and the people who drive it is different, the care/maintanance is different.

原帖由 挨着门洞 于 2006-11-4 19:31 发表
: e9 @3 S1 `, w) E) s' v! w最近看到一辆撞了的bmw 3 ,06的新车，外观看撞的不轻,很诧异,毕竟过去认为德国车尤其是宝马很结实,于是问了一位有几十年body经验的师傅,得到答复，德国车注重车内安全，发生事故，外面看来很严重，但是车内一点 ...

[ 本帖最后由 ligeree 于 2006-11-6 16:12 编辑 ]

Z · 发表于 2006-11-7 09:53

原帖由 ligeree 于 2006-11-6 16:06 发表* Q3 E' `0 x- ~# C& Q; i3 p/ g
The safest car are europian cars, like vw, volvo, MB, bmw, audi, their injury rate can be 1/2 or 1/3 of those less safe ones.

Are you comparing a BMW 550 to a Honda Fit? Yes, the BMW 550 is safer. But really people won't be impressed with that. Try to take on some equal-priced competitors, such as the Japanese Lexus GS460 or the American Cadillac STS. I don't believe the Bimmer would do any better.

ligeree · 发表于 2006-11-7 14:12

In every catagory (very large, large, mid-size, small, luxury cars) europian cars almost always occupied the top 3 places. take vw for example, Audi, passat, jetta, each one is among the safest in their group. Taurus is safer than camry, accord. BMW-3 is safer than lexus es/is.
If you are interested you can read this
http://www.iihs.org/brochures/ictl/pdf/ictl_0906.pdf

原帖由 Z 于 2006-11-7 08:53 发表
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) s! b1 Z6 S6 x* h' F: xAre you comparing a BMW 550 to a Honda Fit? Yes, the BMW 550 is safer. But really people won't be impressed with that. Try to take on some equal-priced competitors, such as the Japanese Lexus ...

Z · 发表于 2006-11-7 14:44

原帖由 ligeree 于 2006-11-7 13:12 发表: h% d/ _# p8 z0 r, N, n
In every catagory (very large, large, mid-size, small, luxury cars) europian cars almost always occupied the top 3 places. take vw for example, Audi, passat, jetta, each one is among the safest in their group. Taurus is safer than camry, accord. BMW-3 is safer than lexus es/is.1 E q# `1 w4 @
If you are interested you can read this& O1 r5 A; b6 o g$ K
http://www.iihs.org/brochures/ictl/pdf/ictl_0906.pdf

Did you read the link your self?

1) There isn't any European car in the very large and large categories. How can they occupy the top 3 places?
2) BMW-3 has better rating than Lexus IS300 (which is last gen). But BMW-3 is worse than Lexus ES, according to the link.
3) Taurus belongs to the "large" category. It's worse than Toyota Avalon. Toyota Camry belongs to the "midsize" category, and it is (marginally) better than Malibu (Malibu is the top selling midsize American sedan in the US).

Get your facts right, before making a statement.

tomgod · 发表于 2006-11-8 18:58

大家只要自己想想看，如果两辆车正面对撞，您愿意坐在一辆自重2吨的美国产SUV里，还是愿意坐在一辆自重700公斤的日本产小车里就明白了。
撞上以后，重车最多是速度降低到一定程度，而轻车则起码回弹回去，又或者是干脆就被撞飞起来。
最近的美国一起车祸，两美国妇女（88岁和68岁）坐SUV与5人坐的一辆日本车对撞上了，两妇女无事，日本车上最轻的是多处骨折，死3人。

酸葡萄 · 发表于 2006-11-8 19:26

说的是中国留学生被撞死的事吧。说是租的新mazda小车，那我看就一定是马3 sedan了。看来开马3的朋友要多注意了。

ligeree · 发表于 2006-11-8 20:45

I can only say that you 纯属抬杠。
1. all the large/very large europian car fall into the luxury category, and they are always the safest. The europian manufacture (unlike US ones) don't make ordinary large/very large cars. If you can, please give me a example of large/very large europian car which is not luxury (say some car that can be found on the street here).

2. BMW-3 4dr is worse than Lexus ES, but what about BMW-3 conv./4WD? Sorry if I miss that previously.

3. What did you say in your last post?? Yes, compare equal-price competetors! Taurus, Malibu, Accord, Camry have comparalble price(acturally the latter two are more expensive)! So I just compared them AS YOU ASKED!
Other than that, Taurus is a MID-SIZE car, that's simply a fact(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Taurus), and It's also a fact that many american midsize car are almost as heavy as full size japanese car. This article categorize the car according to their curb weight, but if you compare Taurus with Avalon which is 25% more expensive, people will just say you're nut.

What's your point by saying Camry is slightly safer than Malibu, I just don't get it. I said in general american cars have average safty rating, and toyota have average safety rating...

read again and think again, buddy.

原帖由 Z 于 2006-11-7 13:44 发表$ L1 C* T+ f& K! I( u
Did you read the link your self?
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1) There isn't any European car in the very large and large categories. How can they occupy the top 3 places?
$ {& E1 n, q$ T# t2) BMW-3 has better rating than Lexus IS300 (which is last gen). But BMW-3 is worse than Lexus ES, according to the link.8 G5 ]3 R8 g6 O! U* ]
3) Taurus belongs to the "large" category. It's worse than Toyota Avalon. Toyota Camry belongs to the "midsize" category, and it is (marginally) better than Malibu (Malibu is the top selling midsize American sedan in the US).6 V" A+ E! i) h6 ?2 Q2 y

5 }. \/ a9 Y1 G. K! }Get your facts right, before making a statement.

[ 本帖最后由 ligeree 于 2006-11-8 19:59 编辑 ]

竹帘儿 · 发表于 2006-11-8 23:19

原帖由 tomgod 于 2006-11-8 17:58 发表4 h& v1 Q1 d5 [- Q! n: H, U6 A
大家只要自己想想看，如果两辆车正面对撞，您愿意坐在一辆自重2吨的美国产SUV里，还是愿意坐在一辆自重700公斤的日本产小车里就明白了。% m) I+ v8 [: F2 t8 Y' o3 i
撞上以后，重车最多是速度降低到一定程度，而轻车则起码回弹回去，又或者是干脆就被撞飞起来。& L* H% E, A, U0 C4 N/ X
最近的美国一起车祸，两美国妇女（88岁和68岁）坐SUV与5人坐的一辆日本车对撞上了，两妇女无事，日本车上最轻的是多处骨折，死3人。

典型的断章取义.
死的三人是后排座的,主要原因是没系安全带. 伤的两人在前排,系了安全带.

Z · 发表于 2006-11-9 10:43

原帖由 ligeree 于 2006-11-8 19:45 发表
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4 n* f0 V/ m) \9 _" t: `1 NI can only say that you 纯属抬杠。
3 i) z4 ^$ L$ |* ~' O" w" g" O2 D1. all the large/very large europian car fall into the luxury category, and they are always the safest. The europian manufacture (unlike US ones) don't make ordinary large/very large cars. If you can, please give me a example of large/very large europian car which is not luxury (say some car that can be found on the street here).
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2. BMW-3 4dr is worse than Lexus ES, but what about BMW-3 conv./4WD? Sorry if I miss that previously.4 a6 ]( `6 J: c
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3. What did you say in your last post?? Yes, compare equal-price competetors! Taurus, Malibu, Accord, Camry have comparalble price(acturally the latter two are more expensive)! So I just compared them AS YOU ASKED!
" r+ F* ~/ Y( x1 l" QOther than that, Taurus is a MID-SIZE car, that's simply a fact(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Taurus), and It's also a fact that many american midsize car are almost as heavy as full size japanese car. This article categorize the car according to their curb weight, but if you compare Taurus with Avalon which is 25% more expensive, people will just say you're nut.
. T1 \1 {" |5 J4 P: I) e: D3 N; O5 C& C2 I- o+ q* x
What's your point by saying Camry is slightly safer than Malibu, I just don't get it. I said in general american cars have average safty rating, and toyota have average safety rating...- \2 U8 N' r7 [

* A2 l5 u* K- Q0 K# D% q7 tread again and think again, buddy.

1) All very large luxury cars are German (plus 1 American), how can you say they are the saftest without anything to compare to? As a matter of fact, these "very large" German cars (S-class, A8, 7-series) all had worse scores than the "large" Lexus LS.
2) Infinity G35 > BMW 3 anything, now you are satisfied?
3) If Taurus is a midsize by Wiki and you believe in Wiki, then the link you provide is not credible. Buddy, you cannot use two conflicting sources at the same time.
4) Now you are talking about price, I remembered that you said VW cars are very safe, do you realize that VW is far more expensive than Toyota? The kind of money you spend on fwd Passat can buy you an Avalon, which is safer.

After all, we are talking about safty, not about injury rate. The latter has a lot to do with driver behavior. Do you really think BMW 3 conv can be safer than BMW 3 sedan? Not a chance. BMW 3 conv has better score only because (1) the drivers are more careful knowing the car is topless and (2) very few people drive topless cars during winter time.

For the same driver, crash rating is far more credible than injury rate. This time let me provide my source of data:
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx
But, of course, you won't read it. You don't even read the one you provided.

Z · 发表于 2006-11-9 10:51

原帖由 tomgod 于 2006-11-8 17:58 发表2 D# Y( ~0 ~2 H! g9 _
大家只要自己想想看，如果两辆车正面对撞，您愿意坐在一辆自重2吨的美国产SUV里，还是愿意坐在一辆自重700公斤的日本产小车里就明白了。
, D; i" ?: ] X) [撞上以后，重车最多是速度降低到一定程度，而轻车则起码回弹回去，又或者是干脆就被撞飞起来。
& k8 ~- O5 Y4 o- E! h& ^9 B最近的美国一起车祸，两美国妇女（88岁和68岁）坐SUV与5人坐的一辆日本车对撞上了，两妇女无事，日本车上最轻的是多处骨折，死3人。

1）请问什么日本车是700公斤，举一个例子就好。如果真有700公斤的车，肯定是超级跑车，全碳素结构的。
2）按说正面相撞是前座危险啊，怎么死的3个都是后座？给解释一下。
3）这个例子和“美国”，“日本”这些产地有关嘛？假设FJ Cruiser和Aveo相撞，Aveo后座3人都没有使用安全带，你觉得后果会如何？

ligeree · 发表于 2006-11-9 13:18

1. all I'm talking about is general trends, German cars are more safe, of course you can always find exeption. just like you can't say canadian people in general are taller than Chinese people but you can alway find very short canadians. If you keep making a big fuss over the very few exceptions, I'll just keep saying that you 纯属抬杠。

2. Injury rate is the best way to evaluate safety, whether you are involved in an accident is quite depend on one's driving habits, but once you are already involved in an accident, it doesn't matter how well you drive, whether you are injured or not soly depend on what kind of vehicle you're in. I never fully trust any crash test! unless it's a head on car-car collision test. A lot of car maker try subtle maneuver to enhance their test performance, but in reality their cars are just trash.

3, I've told you that article categrorize the cars in an unconventional way(into very large, large, mid-size, small, mini) Not like industry standard (full-size, mid-size, compact). Ask anybody, no one will tell you that Taurus is not a Mid-size car. But in that article, of course according to it's size and weight, its relatively large. another 抬杠 you have here.

4. passat may be slightly(10%) more expensive than camry, but jetta is cheaper than, they are all safer.
if you want you can check audi, I believe it's not more expensive than lexus.

5. I believe BMW conv is safer than sedan, simply because BMW know that convertible are dangerous, so they add a lot more technology to protect the driver. I know you wouldn't understand, but racing cars are very very safe, although they're very likely to be involved in accident(high accident rate) due to the bad driving habbit of their drivers, but their injury rate is among the lowest, because the car protect the driver so well (solid passenger cage, multi air bags etc...).

原帖由 Z 于 2006-11-9 09:43 发表' o6 ^' S* C: `' W& V

l( q2 o: S3 P8 Z: |" ^- [; L. @$ d% j- {. X0 Z* C/ l& B
1) All very large luxury cars are German (plus 1 American), how can you say they are the saftest without anything to compare to? As a matter of fact, these "very large" German cars (S-class, A8, 7-series) all had worse scores than the "large" Lexus LS.
7 G; D% d( b2 R! T2 e, }2) Infinity G35 > BMW 3 anything, now you are satisfied?
! y2 I8 R0 ~. I9 s/ t8 e' a. S3) If Taurus is a midsize by Wiki and you believe in Wiki, then the link you provide is not credible. Buddy, you cannot use two conflicting sources at the same time." p$ u" d" V0 T2 W" @
4) Now you are talking about price, I remembered that you said VW cars are very safe, do you realize that VW is far more expensive than Toyota? The kind of money you spend on fwd Passat can buy you an Avalon, which is safer.6 a+ _: h- a' Q( Z1 E, k

5 i3 T$ {# M6 U5 l% S9 TAfter all, we are talking about safty, not about injury rate. The latter has a lot to do with driver behavior. Do you really think BMW 3 conv can be safer than BMW 3 sedan? Not a chance. BMW 3 conv has better score only because (1) the drivers are more careful knowing the car is topless and (2) very few people drive topless cars during winter time.' R S! q4 ]: V1 F" T# J4 E3 N2 v

) y1 l: W3 G6 \" ^For the same driver, crash rating is far more credible than injury rate. This time let me provide my source of data:7 V6 G6 A9 g& t4 y
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/default.aspx
! J% J: Q3 K: X) U3 Z9 HBut, of course, you won't read it. You don't even read the one you provided.

hakunamatata · 发表于 2006-11-9 15:50

原帖由 Z 于 2006-11-9 09:51 发表
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3 v$ Q( H# Y8 S/ o' g7 s& [8 [; B, z+ O+ X" L3 S7 l. j+ ~8 f
1）请问什么日本车是700公斤，举一个例子就好。如果真有700公斤的车，肯定是超级跑车，全碳素结构的。
J, N2 }* {8 d; K2 h) |2）按说正面相撞是前座危险啊，怎么死的3个都是后座？给解释一下。
1 ~- X% ]: b5 a# x2 R0 ?; T( S& [3）这个例子和“美国”，“日本” ...

有700公斤的车,我以前就开过.
就是中国大陆和SUZUKI合资的,奥拓车(AUTO),770公斤,0.77L三缸发动机.四门,四人坐,HATCHBACK,手动挡.
可能是开了一段时间,所以自己感觉这车还不错.
普遍认为是个玩具车(太小,太单薄)
但是我开这个贴也是因为我从中感受到的.就象我#1楼写的
这车的操控性极好,以至在北京怀柔山区拉力塞,以疯狂老鼠胜过,大众的JETTA和雪铁龙的富康
这车结构非常简单,可以说没什么可坏的.
说到雪天驾驶正是我在这车上的感受,5年前北京曾因为冰凌天气,地面全是冰,全城交通瘫痪,当天无数上班族从下午5:00下班到第二天早上6;00还没到家.
我呢,5:00下班,开始不敢开车,后来到6:00PM咬牙上路,我的车不跑偏,不打滑,在大街上钻来钻去于晚8:00到家,当时马路变成大停车场,AUDI,JETTA,TOYOTA各种名车,连起步都不能,18米长10轮的大公共汽车,在5度的坡度立交桥上倒着往下滑.
所以我想说,小而轻的车,在冰面上不一定不好用
速度我曾在京津塘高速上开130KM/HR
非常省油,3~4L/100KM
通过性极强,轮距短,转弯半径小,轮胎着地面积/车重非常大,刹车距离短,底盘高,轻易爬上12CM高的马路边道

说到安全问题,也是大家都跑题的事(我本来说的综合问题)
正如我1楼说的,还是有很多人看贴不认真,老用不同级别的车做正面碰撞想象
好,我如果开700公斤的奥拓,我不会去正面撞2吨的车,同样如果要在大操场上我们较量,我保证2吨的车撞不到我,就象短跑运动员不会去打拳击一样.
即使不小心被撞到的,以那点重量,我的车会滑出很远不假,但以车身变形和车身重量来衡量,我相信我是安全的,在碰撞变形中,产生变形的惯性,几乎全部来自车,人的重量并不大,所以在巨大的减速度下,汽车变形会挤死人,而轻的车会滑出很远,把动能变成动能,变形能很小,感觉象是大锤打罐头盒(不是砸)

前面我还说了,有钱的话,开HUMMER,TANK当然好(就算你开车睡着了,也死不了)
技术探讨很有必要,但希望不要断章取意,那样就没意思了.

前面对奥拓车的喜爱,可能有怀旧的成分,不是什么权威数据

Z · 发表于 2006-11-9 18:26

原帖由 ligeree 于 2006-11-9 12:18 发表0 ^2 R3 B5 G9 o0 G
1. all I'm talking about is general trends, German cars are more safe, of course you can always find exeption. just like you can't say canadian people in general are taller than Chinese people but you can alway find very short canadians. If you keep making a big fuss over the very few exceptions, I'll just keep saying that you 纯属抬杠。
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2. Injury rate is the best way to evaluate safety, whether you are involved in an accident is quite depend on one's driving habits, but once you are already involved in an accident, it doesn't matter how well you drive, whether you are injured or not soly depend on what kind of vehicle you're in.  I never fully trust any crash test! unless it's a head on car-car collision test. A lot of car maker try subtle maneuver to enhance their test performance, but in reality their cars are just trash.' {% \1 I+ [3 p! `- m" W/ M

2 U* ~. b9 w) F. ]8 d3 T8 w3, I've told you that article categrorize the cars in an unconventional way(into very large, large, mid-size, small, mini)  Not like industry standard (full-size, mid-size, compact). Ask anybody, no one will tell you that Taurus is not a Mid-size car. But in that article, of course according to it's size and weight, its relatively large. another 抬杠 you have here.% b3 Y$ s6 j4 Q5 B0 p
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4. passat may be slightly(10%) more expensive than camry, but jetta is cheaper than, they are all safer.7 \: O( v9 e8 C+ h: o* m6 E, v
if you want you can check audi, I believe it's not more expensive than lexus." j& t* W( W+ q: d3 F) R

8 x: ^$ n7 G+ L& i) k  m5. I believe BMW conv is safer than sedan, simply because BMW know that convertible are dangerous, so they add a lot more technology to protect the driver. I know you wouldn't understand, but racing cars are very very safe, although they're very likely to be involved in accident(high accident rate) due to the bad driving habbit of their drivers, but their injury rate is among the lowest, because the car protect the driver so well (solid passenger cage, multi air bags etc...).

1. The trend is that larger cars are safer and more expensive cars are safer. There isn't such a trend about country of origin. If you look at "large luxury cars" (the category with most brands at similar prices), Euro cars range from best(1) to 2nd worst(-2), Jap cars are from +4 to -4, American cars are from +2 to -1.

2. The data is heavily dependent on driver behavior. Sometimes it outweighs the true safty level of the cars. Ex: Toyota Prius has much lower injury rate than BMW 5, it's almost the same as the BMW 7. Do you think the BMW engineers are dumb or what? Got beaten by a much smaller and cheaper car?

3. I am not saying Taurus is large or midsize. That's not my point. My point is that you should provide consistant data. If you do not agree with it, provide something you do agree with, before posting.

4. As I said, Lexus LS is safer than the more expansive BMW 7 and MB S and Audi A8. So, your point being?

5. You are just guessing.

阳光沙滩 · 发表于 2006-11-9 21:38

自己试开过后的感觉最正确。我们经常用主观选择的某个原理去解析一件复杂的事，好像很正确，后来往往发现其实起主导作用的是另一个或多个原理。

ligeree · 发表于 2006-11-10 00:09

1. "The trend is that larger cars are safer and more expensive cars are safer." If I want to act like you, I would point out multiple exceptions (smaller car is safer than large ones), but I won't do that, since I'm just honest. IF you simply can't find the trends that I said, fine with me. Other people may still want to know, and judge for themselves.

2. Again you're picking exceptions. Prius has been on market for 6 or 7 years, but BMW-5 has been out for like more than 30 year. Statistically(if you know what I'm talking about) the data are not even equally reliable.

3. My point is always this, Taurus Camry Accord are all mid-size car according to industry standard.and taurus is safer than the other two. the article I gave you indicate taurus is large doesnt negate the fact that taurus is a mid-size car according to industry standard, and it's fair to compare it with camry and accord.

4. Look at the column right beside "injury" column, that's the collision rate, Lexus LS has way less collision than BMW 7 /MB S. Why BMW/MB has more injury?

5. I got lots of data showing racing car has high collision rate but low injury rate, but after the one I gave you and all these arguing, I don't know how you're gonna misread and how you are gonna think I'm simply "guessing". So I'll give it a rest.

原帖由 Z 于 2006-11-9 17:26 发表
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3 Z+ w2 p: {" Z( P  a7 d1. The trend is that larger cars are safer and more expensive cars are safer. There isn't such a trend about country of origin. If you look at "large luxury cars" (the category with most brands at similar prices), Euro cars range from best(1) to 2nd worst(-2), Jap cars are from +4 to -4, American cars are from +2 to -1.
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2. The data is heavily dependent on driver behavior. Sometimes it outweighs the true safty level of the cars. Ex: Toyota Prius has much lower injury rate than BMW 5, it's almost the same as the BMW 7. Do you think the BMW engineers are dumb or what? Got beaten by a much smaller and cheaper car?
3 m& t; r5 A! U5 K# T+ m# I" Z3 i9 u" I, i7 J( Q$ v' A1 y9 j
3. I am not saying Taurus is large or midsize. That's not my point. My point is that you should provide consistant data. If you do not agree with it, provide something you do agree with, before posting.1 C3 X' b* F& e. j) E% n

3 n. D4 C8 H* W9 {9 `  j; {4. As I said, Lexus LS is safer than the more expansive BMW 7 and MB S and Audi A8. So, your point being?, l: H0 u* @1 T; r- Y- V7 B

6 q' v$ I0 Z$ ]5 ^! Y+ ^/ E8 J) r5. You are just guessing.

[ 本帖最后由 ligeree 于 2006-11-9 23:10 编辑 ]

Z · 发表于 2006-11-10 13:21

原帖由 ligeree 于 2006-11-9 23:09 发表
2 e1 m. y& ?2 X/ G$ I( o1. "The trend is that larger cars are safer and more expensive cars are safer." If I want to act like you, I would point out multiple exceptions (smaller car is safer than large ones), but I won't do that, since I'm just honest. IF you simply can't find the trends that I said, fine with me. Other people may still want to know, and judge for themselves.8 s  V1 J* d0 d! A) n- \
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2. Again you're picking exceptions. Prius has been on market for 6 or 7 years, but BMW-5 has been out for like more than 30 year. Statistically(if you know what I'm talking about) the data are not even equally reliable.
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3. My point is always this, Taurus Camry Accord are all mid-size car according to industry standard.and taurus is safer than the other two. the article I gave you indicate taurus is large doesnt negate the fact that taurus is a mid-size car according to industry standard, and it's fair to compare it with camry and accord.
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6 W( }, G) J; k) @% y6 c0 ^! a7 v4. Look at the column right beside "injury" column, that's the collision rate, Lexus LS has way less collision than BMW 7 /MB S. Why BMW/MB has more injury?8 z9 v5 I  B1 Z
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5. I got lots of data showing racing car has high collision rate but low injury rate, but after the one I gave you and all these arguing, I don't know how you're gonna misread and how you are gonna think I'm simply "guessing". So I'll give it a rest.

1. That's not even an argument.

2. Again, you did not even read the link you provided. It states "2003-2005" models; it's not about 30-year average.

3. Fine, let's make Taurus midsize. Then, Taurus is at 106, Camry is at 110, Malibu is at 113. I would say they are pretty close. Taurus beating Camry by 4 is not a valid arguement to say American cars are safer, since Camry also beats the Malibu by 3.

4. OMG you don't even understand the info you posted! "Collision" has nothing to do with numbers of collision. It represents the repair claims (in $ value) for that model. The offical definition is "Collision losses indicate the relative average loss payments per insured vehicle year filed under collision coverages." Lexus LS having less "collision" than BMW indicates that the Lexus cost less to repair. Insurers always charge more for the policy if the brand is known to be expensive to repair.

5. Your data only showed "injury loss" score and "collison loss" score. You never showed any "collsion rate." If you are not guessing, please give an explanation as why the Prius beats BMW 5-series? My explaination is that driver behaviors are different. Since you do not agree with that, give me your explaination.

[ 本帖最后由 Z 于 2006-11-10 12:23 编辑 ]

ligeree · 发表于 2006-11-10 14:44

Could you please go back to my original post, did I ever say american cars are safe? I said they are average, just like toyota, but they are usually better than honda(slightly) and the rest Jap cars.

I hate to do this but take  all mid-size car for example
average injury rate, the lower the safer.

europian car 87
American car  92
Japanese car  135

Just some elementary school math, divide the mid-size car category into 3 group(EU, Americ, Jap), and
average each groups score, the lower score, the lower injury rate, the better. That's the trends I was talking about, if you can't see it, or think 87 is more than 135, I'm sorry that I wasted so much time (on both of us).
You can do this on all the category, similiar pattern will be found, as long as there are all three groups.
As I always said, toyota is average, so lexus is average in the luxury category, so in the luxury category Jap(acturally mostly toyota) are about average.

of course you can find exceptions(as you always did), but I won't respond to that, since it's gonna be like a quarrel between teenager girls.

It's not completely safe to say that BMW has more collision number, but it's either not reasonable to say that the total cost for BMW is much higher simply because it fix expensive not because it has more collision. Unless you  can prove that fixing BMW is 50% more expensive than fixing lexus.

All I wanted to do here is to provide some general trends to the people here about the popular cars and maybe help them decide which way to go. Every car has it's advantage and disadvantage, but people won't have time to investigate on each model each year. That's why I gave such statement like german cars are the safest, toyota/honda are the most reliable, american cars are large and cheap to fix. it's definitly not strictly scientifically sound but acceptable by the public. If you keep looking for the very few exceptions, don't argue with me here, not the right place.

原帖由 Z 于 2006-11-10 12:21 发表
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1. That's not even an argument.
3 Z: x8 B0 A2 k# U$ c* o: q( X" J  T8 O$ l( n
2. Again, you did not even read the link you provided. It states "2003-2005" models; it's not about 30-year average.
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3. Fine, let's make Taurus midsize. Then, Taurus is at 106, Camry is at 110, Malibu is at 113. I would say they are pretty close. Taurus beating Camry by 4 is not a valid arguement to say American cars are safer, since Camry also beats the Malibu by 3.4 Y% P" x$ b/ _/ j$ {! o
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4. OMG you don't even understand the info you posted! "Collision" has nothing to do with numbers of collision. It represents the repair claims (in $ value) for that model. The offical definition is "Collision losses indicate the relative average loss payments per insured vehicle year filed under collision coverages." Lexus LS having less "collision" than BMW indicates that the Lexus cost less to repair. Insurers always charge more for the policy if the brand is known to be expensive to repair.
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5. Your data only showed "injury loss" score and "collison loss" score. You never showed any "collsion rate." If you are not guessing, please give an explanation as why the Prius beats BMW 5-series? My explaination is that driver behaviors are different. Since you do not agree with that, give me your explaination.

[ 本帖最后由 ligeree 于 2006-11-10 14:07 编辑 ]

Z · 发表于 2006-11-10 18:20

Your method is flawed in two ways:

1) Different models have different weight. You simply cannot average Toyota Camry with Mitsubishi Galant linearly, since the former out sells the latter more than 10 to 1.

2) You didn't consider price. As you already said, Avalon is more expansive, thus we cannot just compare it to Taurus.

In a way, you are right. The average German car is safer, since the average German car is more expansive. In Canada, the top selling BMW is the 3-series, and the top-selling Toyota is Corolla. And we know the former is better. But, just read my post #37. Is that kind of comparison meaningful? As far as I know, the new Lexus IS 250/350 beats the BMW 3 in crash test ratings.

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